Kingspring and KYB mix-up.

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Claude io
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I have some good news.

Before the good news I explain the problem to make sure that everyone understand.

The io have 2 different types of strut, one have the lower spring plate 25 mm lower than the other, because of that one spring is 25 mm longer than the other. Most suspension companies were not aware of this and by changing the strut with the new one, or buying lifted spring, you could end up with an unsafe set up.  Please check the Fordem's thread http://www.pajerio.com/forum/strut-data to understand the difference between the 2 struts. Some member of the forum have bought lifted Kingspring to lift they io, as you now understood that there are 2 different springs, Kingspring had only one spring on their listing as they didn't know about the 2 different suspensions. Their unique lifted spring are for the 25 mm lower spring plate and not for the other one. Once you fit their unique lifted spring to the 25 mm higher spring plate you end up with an unsafe set up with no droop, or close to no droop, some might even be unaware of their dangerous set up.

Most of us are swapping their 25 mm lower spring plate strut by the 25 mm higher spring plate strut in order to accommodate the fitting of bigger tyres.

A  close-by member had his suspension upgraded with KYB shock and the unique lifted Kingspring at a local suspension shop. After inspecting his car I found that no droop was left and he decided to get this problem fixed.

The good news (at last!)

 After some explaining with another shop, they decided to help and Kingspring have been contacted and they have resolved this issue and supplied, free of charge, new spring designed to fit the 25 mm higher spring plate strut. My understanding  is that Kingspring have corresponded with KYB and others suspension supplier to make them aware of the difference. Kingspring will have a new spring listed in their catalogue.

The 2 KYB strut reference number

KYB 334442 : the 25 mm lower spring plate

KYB 334405 : the 25 mm higher spring plate

Kingspring unique lifted spring : KMFS900 , I will give the new spring reference as soon as I get it.

Please do not mixed KIngspring KMFS900 and KYB 334405.

They are ways to go around this problem, but this post is mainly to have everyone aware about it (forum reader) and that most of the supplier will be too.

EDIT the new kingspring ref number is KMFS-900SP

Happy io.

singlecell
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.

I am pretty sure if you buy the dobinson stock spring you will get the same result.

fordem
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Claude you're missing a 3

The KYB number for the lower pan strut should be 334442 

Claude io
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missing number

Thanks, I will correct that now...

Happy io

simmo777
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Thank god for this! My old

Thank god for this! My old man got some Kingsprings for my Paj and put them under the Christmas tree! From what I understand he went in and explained the situation and they must have given him these new springs for 25mm higher strut pan (will check product codes against yours on xmas day)

Great to know as a mate of mine also just got an IO and will be looking to do the same!

 

Cheers

Simmo

2002 5dr Pajero IO QA 2.0L Auto - Lifted, Locked!! 1.925 Low Range - Muddies (205/80/16) - Redback Extractors to 200cell cat to dump at diff Exhaust 

Claude io
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Pajero io front kingspring new reference number

This took a while in the making....but here it is...the new reference number for the new kingspring, as mentioned in the first post of this thread is KMFS-900SP. (thanks Simmo)

As this is a new design, it is not know to lots of shop, and you will find that most will try to sell you the KMFS-900 ....make them call "Kingspring" and get the KMFS-900SP instead or contact "Kingspring" directly.

This spring will leave some droop and are safe to install on the KYB 334405 : the 25 mm higher spring plate

To the people that have the KMFS-900 fitted, replacing them could be a good idea. You may even try to contact "Kingspring" to see if they may agree do a swap (no promise here and they will probably refuse... but no harm asking)

Happy io

Glen
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This is now a sticky. I

This is now a sticky.

I personaly dont like the idea of only having 25mm of droop. but 0 is no fun !

Claude io
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Good idea

I think that it is a very good idea....safety first...

Now we have Kingspring making the new spring, but I found that they can be hard to find (unless you get them from Kingspring directly). I have contacted  a couple of seller on Ebay, and one is going to have his listing modified...to supply the new spring...:)    As soon as it it done, I will give you a link...

Happy io

Mtbmikeyb
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Astina springs

Claude just wanting to know what model Atsina did you get the springs out of ? Thanks

Claude io
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Astina spring

Welcome to the forum....

BA 1995 Astina,

Post 72 http://pajerio.com/forum/lift-options-tires-sizes-look-here-first?page=1

Happy io

Mtbmikeyb
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Thanks heaps

Thanks mate

Hanno
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Does the KYB 334405 and standard spring decrease your droop?

Good day,

Thanks for the sticky, it is very insightful

 

I exchanged my struts with the KYB 334405 ones to accomodate the bigger tires - after reading this thread I am still left with four questions:

-Does instaling the KYB 334405 struts and keeping my standard spring decrease my droop? If so, by how much? Would I still have enough droop left?

-What would the effect be of installing the kingspring KMFS-900SP? How would it affect my a)my droop and b) my lift

-Does the KYB334405 increase lift? I have conflicting posts on this forum in respect to that

-Does anyone have drawings for rear and front spacers to increase lift?

 

Sorry if this was allready mentioned somewhere else, I am still getting to grips with navigating this forum

 

Happy io

 

 

fordem
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It depends on what you started with.

Hanno wrote:

-Does instaling the KYB 334405 struts and keeping my standard spring decrease my droop? If so, by how much? Would I still have enough droop left?

It depends on what strut/spring you start with - if you start with the high pan strut/spring there is no change - if you start with the low pan strut/spring, then yes, it does - it decreases by the amount of lift, so roughly 25mm.

Quote:

-What would the effect be of installing the kingspring KMFS-900SP? How would it affect my a)my droop and b) my lift

It depends on what strut/spring you start with - if you start with the high pan strut/spring, you'll get whatever lift King advertises - if you start with the low pan strut/spring, you'll get the advertised lift + 25mm - your droop will be reduced by whatever lift you gain in either case

Quote:

-Does the KYB334405 increase lift? I have conflicting posts on this forum in respect to that

It depends on what strut you start with - if you start with the "high" pan strut - then there is no lift, if you start with the low pan strut, you'll get a 25mm lift.

 

bob_oz
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simple

the spring and higher spring perch combo's simply push the car up on the strut, this means at rest it is further extended than normal so you have less droop and more travel.

pushing the car up by spacing the strut top down from the body with a spacer does not affect droop/lift on the strut but can cause CV iss'es if lifted too far and the strut on full droop.

don't extend anything such that you are 50mm or greater lower on full droop as this will cause issue with RH CV joint

.

Hanno
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Thank you Bob_Oz and

Thank you Bob_Oz and Fordem,

 

I indeed had the lower strut  - thus I have increase lift and decreased droop - is still acceptable decrease in droop?

 

Claude io
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acceptable

Hanno wrote:

Thank you Bob_Oz and Fordem,

 

I indeed had the lower strut  - thus I have increase lift and decreased droop - is still acceptable decrease in droop?

 

In this case it is acceptable in a way of that it will be safe to drive. Your lift will be around 25 mm and you will have some droop left. The major problem was the mixed up as I described well above and ending up having no droop left. Missing a bit of droop is acceptable, having none is very dangerous and will damage the strut as well.

Happy io

Claude io
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less droop more travel ???

bob_oz wrote:

the spring and higher spring perch combo's simply push the car up on the strut, this means at rest it is further extended than normal so you have less droop and more travel.

Bob, I don't think that this is correct, yes for less droop but not for more travel. If you choose to lift by using higher spring you are actually loosing travel....unless I am missing something ! I have been wrong before...ask my wife !

Happy io

bob_oz
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claude

less droop,

more compression

.

Claude io
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More compression, I may misunderstand what you mean. My way of thinking, again I can be wrong,  If anything both spring are made with the same material with the same diameter, the one that is longer  (and give a lift ) have more coil and to me should be a touch firmer if anything (probably not much at all, if anything). This in turn should give us less (if anything!) compression.....  I understand that the travel is related to the length of the shaft of the strut but  by spring fitted as well. The firmer the spring, the less compression, the less travel.....Add a lift, and you loose more travel again. 

Maybe if you do a lift with a softer spring, you might get more travel. I wouldn't advised this for a car on road as stability at higher speed could become a problem.

Happy io, 

 

fordem
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Compression = up travel.

First - the total travel is determined by the shock or strut - and is essentially the difference between the fully open & closed lengths (or full extension & compression)

Next - with the vehicle at rest - the shock/strut will be at some point in beween fully open & fully closed - ideally at, or close to a midpoint - from that point any downward wheel movement is droop (or extension), any upward wheel movement is compression.

UP Travel + DOWN Travel = TOTAL Travel

Compression + Droop = TOTAL Travel

Please notice I have not included the spring in the discussion so far - as long as the spring is suitable for the application (neither too short or long and not too stiff), the only part the spring will play is to determine where the vehicle sits when it is at rest.

Claude io
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thanks

Thanks, agree with your comment.

This is why I think that the spacer at the top of the strut do give a better (more of) total travel and that a longer, or firmer, spring does shorten the total travel. But I can understand that other choose other set up. I am also very interested to hear why, to make sure that I fully understand other opinion....learning process:)

Happy io

bob_oz
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nope

OK

 

the strut stoke dictates the total travel up/down available (up/down = compression/droop)

the spring stiffness dictates where on this section of travel the vehicle is at rest: (i.e. how much compression available and how much droop available)

at any position on the strut the (compression mm) + (droop mm) = (total travel mm)

as you stiffen or lengthen the spring the vehicle is lifted and the strut extends resulting in the rest point to be closer to the full-extension or droop end
as you soften the spring or shorten the spring the vehicle is lowered and the strut compresses resulting in the rest point being closer to full-compression.

in an ideal world you want the compression mm and droop mm to suit the terrain you will be driving over i.e. compression mm will be greater than the humps, and droop mm longer than the pot-holes. this will allow the vehicle to remain level with the wheels moving up/down as required.

if you lift the car with stiffer springs you find that the strut is harder to compress so bumps are felt more, and you reduce the available droop so the strut cannot extend downwards as far from rest resulting in "topping out"

A strut-top spacer moves the strut down so does not cause any loss/gain in droop or compression distances but generally will influence hub caster/camber and CV angles.

I tuned my io up as I would tune rally trucks from my past: front spring is long and soft to absorb initial impact and allow for good road holding of the steering wheels, rear spring is firmer so that  by the time the bump has reached the rear the front is already lifting up again and compensates for change in angle.

In an ideal world the front shock should have a slower rebound rate than the rear, this way the vehcile compensates for the time difference between front compression/rebound and rear compression/rebound - this produces a vehcile that will rebound the same at the front and rear even though the front hit the bump earlier than the rear.

old long soft io springs in front and firmer but not hard astina's in rear work well, then a strut top spacer to level the front to the back - The LWB io's probably need a slightly stiffer front spring i.e. kings spring, to compensate for the extra mass.

My io flies on rough roads and tracks - 60-80km/h is perfect and through braking and throttle you can adjust the nose elevation through troughs and crests as well as rear axle positioning/step-out on dirt corners.

 

.

bob_oz
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next change I am looking at

next change I am looking at is to replace my front KYB strut and spacer with just a longer strut with more travel - the mazda tribune strut looks like a good doner BUT they will give me more than 50mm extra droop, so I will need to drop front diff by about 12mm to compensate.

Outlander struts seemed good but are the exact  same travel mm and hence not worth the effort.

.

Claude io
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nope ?

 I agree to disagree smiley and more than happy to try to understand.

For me what stop the shock to do is full travel is what is between the low point and the high point. The more spring in between, the less usable total wheel travel you have. The firmer the spring, the less your shock will be able to move to use the maximum wheel travel.

You said that you tune rally truck in your pass, after all and every one searching on how to lift our car, you are telling us this only now...bugger!  Whoa this would be a fantastic job, what were you doing ? when you said "tune" is it modifying ? or doing wheel alignment ? building new suspension ? engeenering ? I had no idea that you worked in that field...would love to hear more, at that level of specialisation....you might be right  with your idea of more wheel travel with the longer io spring ! I just don't get it !

The problem I find with my set up is that it tend to be too soft when I lift both front wheel, I have damaged a couple of bump stop a few time on landing. I would like to try to use a firmer spring or the koni insert or both. ..or maybe go easier !

As for camber and caster angle pb...any lift, any car, will give you some change. Only a couple of io here have done some adjustment regarding these, me included. I might even think that it is not that critical or needed with a 50 mm lift.

While I am not agree with you :)  the most important thing is that 50 mm spacer at the top, or 25 mm spacer and older longer io spring with astina spring at the rear are both safe to drive and are a good very basic way to lift your car...as long as you don't mix up the strut and the kingspring the wrong way.

Happy io

Hanno
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Rear lift questions

Hi guys,

I hope you can help with a few quick questions with regards to the rear lift:

1. What year model astina has the correct coil?

2. What year model of triton has the correct shock? Do you have a part nr for it?

 

Then with regards to the front lift:

1. How many turns does the shorter and longer coils have? Not sure which one I currently have in (bought car 3 months ago)

 

Happy io!

Hanno

 

PS: this post is probably in the wrong section but somehow I can only post in posts that I have previously participated in.

bob_oz
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rear lift

1) not sure on year model - was sold as the "BA" here

it is listed as "7/94-8/98 323 BA 1.6 1.8 BA11P1 BA1161"

looks like this:

 

the coil springs are shown below - these were taken when I switched from the later model short coils to the earlier longer coils

no idea on the triton - I am still running standard rear shocks

.

Hanno
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Thx Bob, this helps plenty

Thx Bob, this helps plenty :)

Did you put the astina coils in without changing the shocks? Would changing the shocks give added articulation? (ps triton = lm200 I think)

I found a guy selling old astina spares (car looks like that) in the classified, he wants to charge me R2300 (R243 AUD) for the pair - is this a decent price?

bob_oz
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astina rear

yes - fitted the astina front coils in the back no worries with standard shocks - no real sense of not enough articulation.

thing i was worried about with the triton shock is that the shock will bottom out before the coil spring bump stop contacts - could damage stock if I landed heavily.

I was quoted $50AUD for the pair of front astina coils from a wrecker - as it was I picked mine up for free but I'd be looking for a price closer to that.

.

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